Create The Best Me

Stop Debt Shame With These 3 Easy Steps!

• Carmen Hecox • Episode 141

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Is debt shame making you anxious about your finances and holding you back from building a better financial future? In “Stop Debt Shame With These 3 Easy Steps!”, I’m joined by entrepreneur, lifelong investor, and MillionElle podcast host Gokce Donat. Together, we get honest about debt shame, what it is, how to recognize its signs, and proven ways to move from embarrassment into action. 

Debt shame keeps too many wise, hardworking women stuck, feeling isolated and hesitant to talk about money. We’ll break down why debt shame exists, how you can spot it in your own life, and what works to overcome it. From seeing your complete financial picture in one place to building a plan that actually fits real life and tapping into tools and community accountability, “Stop Debt Shame With These 3 Easy Steps!” delivers hope, clarity, and practical steps you can use right now.

We’ll also cover buy now, pay later traps, the reality of daily compounding interest, and why financial shame says nothing about your worth. If you want to finally break free and create the best version of yourself, one goal at a time, this episode is for you!

What You’ll Learn:

  1. How to spot and confront debt shame in your own life
  2. Concrete steps to organize your accounts and get clarity
  3. The myth that high earners don’t have money problems—and what matters most
  4. What makes credit cards and buy now, pay later debt so dangerous
  5. How community support and monthly accountability transform motivation 

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💬 Comment below with your debt stories or questions. We’re here to support each other! 

 📕 Resources: 

https://createthebestme.com/ep141 

https://millionelle.com/services/ 

Related Episodes:

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https://www.buzzsprout.com/1949561/episodes/17400154

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1949561/episodes/14993759 

 

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If the thought of opening up your credit card app makes your stomach flip, breathe, you are not alone. Today, we're talking about debt shame and the simple moves that put you back in control. My guess is Gokce Donat, an entrepreneur, lifelong investor and the voice behind MillionElle Podcast. We'll define debt shame, spot the signs, and walk through the practical steps, you can actually use seeing your full money picture in one place. Build a plan that fits real life and use tools and a community to keep you going. We'll also touch on the buy now, pay later. How interest compounds daily and why one clear goal beats 10 good intentions. Let's get you relief, clarity, and your next right steps starting now. Gokce Donat, welcome to Create the Best Me. It is a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so much for the invitation, Carmen. I was really excited to talk to you and be here. Yes. Before we get into today's recording, could you please tell the listeners and viewers a little bit about who you are and what you do? So, my name is Gokce Donat. I am an entrepreneur and investor, lifelong investor. My latest business was, I was in residential home construction for the past 15 years. Before that I had a home healthcare business. Like I said, I'm a lifelong investor, especially in equity markets and real estate. And my passion today in 2025 is really helping our younger people, get their financial stuff together, through my company MillionElle and that's, really it. I have a master's in finance. I have two technical undergrad degrees. But when it comes to the business world and everything that I've done, you really learn the most through doing. And the advantage that our young people have is the information. You know, there's downsides to social media. There's downsides to the internet, but I think the upside is worth a lot more. So if you wanna get out of debt, if you wanna build your net worth, it's easier today, more than ever. That's good to hear that it's easier now more than ever. So the reason I invited you on to the show is to talk about debt shame three moves to get back into control. And so I wanna ask you a question. What was a quick moment when you felt shame and what snapped you out of it? That's a very good question, and it was relatively recent. My family, we have always been very aware of our finances. So you know, there was, really not an extended period of time where we were in debt. And I think there's this misconception that when you're a high earner, you don't have financial problems. But, but that is not true. Aside with, we never tried to keep up with anybody. But my aha moment was when I stopped and looked at our expenses between my husband and I and my growing children, especially when they got to college. And that was really something that was eye-opening because every month, obviously I do look at our expenses; I look at everything every month. But I, never took a granular perspective, and that was my wake up call that I even needed to get my stuff together. And, and you know, let me just expand on that. The reason I say that is, if you have extra cash, if you're not blowing your money on stuff you don't need, you take that and you throw it into an ETF, especially like, SPY or VOO, and it does the work for you over time without lifting a finger. So that was my shame. My shame was, you have all of this knowledge, you have all of this background in the stock market, which we can talk about later, but I wasn't doing the simplest thing, which is letting time work for me, given all of my knowledge. So it was major shame. I was really disappointed in myself. But got it together. But you know, they always say, and I've heard this said, like with doctors; doctors make the worst patients. And so you had all this knowledge and you were helping people, but you weren't putting that knowledge in to place where it really needed to be. Well, so what I was doing was, I've always been a successful investor. And when I say always; to be a good investor, your money psychology really drives if you're a good or bad investor. You have to know yourself really well. And so I'm very good at that I know my limits. So, on one hand my investments were doing great, but on the other hand, when I wasn't keeping an eye on my expenses, you know, my investment income could have been that much better without additional effort. So, you know, I wasn't losing money, I just wanna be clear on that. I just wasn't being as smart as I could have been. So let's talk about what is debt shame? Debt shame is where, you don't know how you got there and are embarrassed, right, given your situation. It's something that's very common, especially amongst our generation, our generation of women. So Gen X women statistically carry the most credit card debt. Which kind of makes sense, when you look at we are caregivers. When you look at where we're at in life on average, it makes sense. So that's what debt shame is. It's kind of not knowing how you got there and not feeling great about it. And how would someone know that they are spiraling into debt shame? I think, I think subconsciously, you always know, I don't think level of education matters. Subconsciously you always know, but consciously you make a choice. So when you spiral out of control, you figure it out when you can't even meet the monthly minimum, the interest payment on your credit card. So I would guess that's rock bottom. You know, it's not a number because everyone's number is different, but when you can no longer pay your bills, that's when it's spiraled out of control. I would think too, like if somebody asked you: Well, how much money do you make? And how much are you investing? And that kind of like sparks a like confrontation. Because a person doesn't want to address it. People don't like to talk about money in general, which I think is very silly. And you're right, they don't wanna address it because most people even doctors, lawyers, people that you assume are highly educated; most of them, majority of them statistically have, even if they're using a financial advisor or they have a financial planner, they don't know where their money's invested. Well, they might have a general idea, but they don't understand the underlying investments. And, and it's not because they're not intelligent, you know, it's, it's a matter of time. You have to take the time to understand what these products are and, and what that means, especially relative to your risk profile. What's one myth about debt that keeps smart, capable women quiet? You know, I think, I would guess that the biggest myth is that you can't come back from it. That once you make the mistake you're in debt forever. But, but of course that's not true. And a big part, like one of the biggest parts of our company is being aware. It boils down to awareness and knowing where your money's going first. How much money are you making? And can we increase that? Can we increase your income somehow? And also, where's your money going? Like what are you getting into debt over? Like you and I were, before we started recording, we were talking about college. College is huge. I actually had a conversation with a wonderful human being about a month ago; and her son had gotten into a private university but she called me crying because she was going to be in debt the rest of her life essentially. And she was really in distress. And I said, well, figure out what, because he was staying on campus. So I said, figure out what the liability is relative to the dorm, 'cause it's kind of like a lease agreement; you can default on it, but don't wanna do that. And I said send them to community college. And in the state of Michigan, there are circumstances where the state government will cover community college tuition. You know, people just don't make intelligent choices. I think this is something,'cause I have older children. I have a daughter that's already graduated from college. I have one that will be going to college maybe in about, I don't know, eight years, 'cause she's still small. But I think that, 'cause I've been there, I think that some people think what are people going to think if my child does not go to this, elite school, what are people going to say about me? That's a reflection of my parenting skills. Or, and another thing they don't think about is also what does my child want to be when they grow up? Can they get it somewhere else get that same education somewhere else for less? That's exactly what it boils down to, right? Is first of all the parents, what are people gonna think? Well, people don't pay your bills. Who cares? So I'll give you an example, and I agree with you, depending on what he or she wants to study changes the story, right? So I have two kids, one of them wanted to go to business school. When you go to business school, depending on what your goals are, you know, if you wanna be in investment banking or you wanna be in highly competitive sectors, you have to go to a brand school, if you will. You know, you have to go to top five, top 10 business school in the country if you can. But my younger son, he's pre-med, it does not matter where you go to school. It's difficult to get into any medical school and what matters are your grades and what you get on the MCAT and you know, there are all these extracurricular things you have to do. But you're right, it, it really depends what they wanna study and if it's worth the investment. And certain kids that for whatever reason, can't get into a top business school, let's say, might end up having the grit to figure it out on their own. So, yeah, I don't think it's worth it. I've had this conversation with so many different people. And I'm sure it's like this in California, so we live in Michigan and there are schools within Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana, Illinois that regionally are known, but on a national level, they're not a brand. So you're telling me you're paying 60, 70 grand a year for what? Like nobody else cares that this kid went to X, Y, Z school. It's sad. And it's sad for people that are getting into debt over something like schooling when they could make smarter choices. And I think especially, women and midlife, you know, we're facing that situation where we are thinking about how many more years do I need to work before I need to retire. Now I have this child who applied to go to school at these schools. My parents are getting older and I might need to take care of one of them. And they could also be faced with either the death of their partner or a divorce. And so that's a lot. Yes yes. of, that's a lot of stress on a woman, but yet we are. And women earn less. Women earn less, right? Statistically. Yes, we earn less. But we are problem solvers. We're great problem solvers. Yes, we are. And we wanna do the best our family. Yeah, we wanna do the best for our family. How do you, coach, someone like that, a woman like that, to be able to remove all of this pressure and think about what's right for her. So much of it depends, when it comes to the actual numbers; you have to look at the numbers first, right? What's our starting point? How good or bad is it? And once she takes that step forward, that makes her feel so much better. Just taking one small step forward is a major relief, and especially when you can put a plan together. So we have an app that makes it really, so part of the problem with money is it isn't easy to pool all of your financials together, right? So our app, we call it Command Center as long as you have your login. So it could be like your checking your savings, your investment accounts, your loans, your credit card accounts, whatever you have; as long as it's with like a large institution, you enter in your login, it dumps everything into the app. You have to categorize things like, I would say set up takes about an hour tops. It's very easy to set up, but it takes a lot of the, the pain out of why a lot of people, you just don't have time. You don't have time to look at everything. So once she knows where she's at I'm all about one goal. I think especially like you said, when you're juggling so many things as a woman in midlife typically is, it's good to have one goal and a plan, which she'll get there. I mean, she has the tools, she has the support, she will get there. Does your program it also grab like your retirement plans or savings and thrift that you have with your personal employer? Yes. It pulls everything. It's, it's, it's pretty amazing, Yeah, because I know that a lot of times, we trust our employers. Like some employers allow you to choose where you want your money diversified, but it's within their, whatever group they're using. And you kind of just either leave it there, or maybe you might get advice from a colleague that says, hey, you know you need to shift it because of X, Y, Z. Would your. You know, part of that too, part of the problem with like 401k's through your employer is you have to make sure it's vested. Sometimes, you know, it's just sitting in a money market account waiting for you to make a decision. And unless someone points that out to you, which they should. Or like you said, you pick up on when you're talking to a coworker, yeah. You have to make sure it's invested in something and not just sitting in a cash account that's yielding nothing. Yeah. And I think a lot of things that, like someone like me, 'cause I don't know a lot about money, it's because we don't know about money. Because we don't know about investments and we hear all these scary stories about crashes or, or things going upside down. And where does that leave me? So, the reason I've always been so comfortable with money is my dad was an accountant and his favorite thing to talk about was macro economics. That was just his thing, macro econ and the stock market. So I grew up going with him to his brokerage. And you're right. And I don't think it's just women. I think men and women find the financial world for whatever reason, very intimidating. But like I had said earlier, YouTube is a great example; like I wouldn't suggest listening to one person, but when you listen to multiple people and learn from multiple people, let's say relative to the stock market, they should be telling you the same thing. There, there shouldn't be anything unique to what each of them are saying. But there's so much information out there. So even if you do wanna hire someone to manage your money, it's still good to understand it. So that when there is a crash, when there is a correction, when you know there is a war, you know that statistically you're going to be fine. And you don't call your advisor, or if you have your own brokerage account and, you know, just pull everything. So, it's good to be informed. So, let's say somebody comes in, and, there's some debt there. How does one know when is the right time to consolidate their debt? When is that a good thing or a bad thing? The reason I ask that question is because a lot of times sometimes people will consolidate their debt, cause, they're like ah yeah I'm gonna, I'm gonna get this down. Well, it may or may not be a good option based on how you do it and who you go with. There are a lot of variables there. So, that's why it's good to kind of look at, even if it's necessary, you know, it might not be necessary. If somebody says, you know, I have this debt, I have way too much debt. There is no way I have money to invest. How can I find money to invest? How can someone find that? As soon as they cut back on their expenses and try to make some more money. If you're focused on paying down the debt, you can. And in some circumstances, depending on how foregone it is, you could declare bankruptcy. You know, there are ways to get there. Not that I'm advocating, declaring bankruptcy. But you will eventually be able to invest. If you want to it's in your control. Yeah, but I think that sometimes people are not accustomed to saving, and if they're not accustomed to saving or investing, they have this automatic wall that I can't do it because I've never done it. I think you're right. Yeah, no, I think you're 100% right. It's a habit for sure. And again, going back to why media is great, you know, like if you follow me, for instance, it's going to get you thinking about it. You're going to start thinking about these issues that you weren't taught growing up. And it's getting into the habit everything, you can automate everything now, whether it's through your bank or through your brokerage. An extra 10, $20 a week, a month, whatever really adds up over time. And you're right, it's, it's, it's a habit that you have to get into, but first and foremost, you have to keep, you know your expenses in check. And I think the other thing is realizing what expenses should I be counting and which ones are just, just stuff that, you know, it's kinda like crap. I shouldn't be tossing my money into that. Yeah, well there's certain expenses that are fixed, right? I mean, your mortgage, your food, if you have a car payment. Car payments are huge too you know, you have people that are driving cars, like when we were growing up; you did not purchase a car you could not afford. That mentality has changed. That's part of the problem for the millennials. So with your fixed expenses, you don't have a choice, but with going out to eat. So food is a huge category. There are ways you can save on your expenses. But the whole point is to first be aware of what's going out so that you can actually zero in on it and try to improve it. And also you wanna try and make more money if possible, right? Ask for a raise at work. We did an episode on negotiating a raise. There are things you can do in 2025 to, to make a little bit more money. So, people kind of forget about that. I would have the confidence to branch out, try something new, ask for a raise. I don't know, babysit your next door neighbor's kids. There's, there's ways to do it if you want to. Yeah. Or there's these apps, you know, these apps, Uber or Lyft or Grubhub. Right, right, right, yeah. But like to answer your question, an expense is an expense, like if you're negative it, it's negative; but they're not out of your control. You have to be able to control them and make it a bit more predictable so you can save and invest. Have you ever worked with someone that maybe they've made it this far in their life and they've never had a budget, and that's been the issue? The majority, that is the majority of people. You know, budgets are budgets. To have a consistent budget, not once in a while, but to have a consistent budget that you stick to is near impossible because, you have to have the tools. That's why I'm not selling my app. I'm really not. But that's why you have to have, if you have tools that make it easy for you, that's half the battle. It really is. If you have a reminder that, let's say you're out to dinner with your girlfriends and your drink is $25 and your steak is a hundred bucks. And let's say you're splitting this cost and the charge goes through and you get an alert that says, excuse me, what are you doing? And then maybe the next step, or let's say you start at the bar and that charge goes through. So the next step when you go to eat or go to the club or wherever young people go these days, I don't know. You're going to be aware of that and that will hopefully make you spend less. Yeah, it's, I mean, budgeting is like dieting, it's very, very difficult. You need the right tools, and that's the reason why we have our monthly classes. It's a support system, and it's the accountability factor more than someone there to answer your questions. So the app also updates your information every 24 hours. And once you have set that up properly; the purpose of the monthly classes was that you will stick with the budget and to give you the accountability and go back and say, this is how great I did this month, and to encourage others. And who can see that information that's in that app? All the information I put into your app, who can see that? Who has access to that? So as a user, you have a choice as to what I can see, and nobody in your group sees it. But I can see it if you want me to see it. And that is your choice. Hmm. Okay. Because I know that sometimes, let's say I went out and decided to go out with the girls and I was feeling a little too friendly and I decided to cover the whole meal and drinks. Yeah, it happens. And then we have our accountability meeting, and I have to look at you. Well, in our accountability meeting, what I would tell you is we're all human and it made you happy to do it. Just try to do it less frequently to get to your goal. You know, we have to live. We have one bucket, one classification where, and this is exceptionally rare, but it's the person that is so miserly and is so rigid in her ways that she's not enjoying life. You can't forget that there's balance to everything. But like in 2025, when you go out to eat and it's, it, it is just so expensive. You know when a bag of chips is seven, $8, you have to decide what you're buying at the grocery store. You have to make a conscious choice. Mm-hmm. Makes it kind of hard to have those Super Bowl parties. Yeah, it does. Yeah, you have to have potluck parties, especially if the party's always at your house. There's always that one person, right, the entertainer. Mm-humm How do you handle buy now, pay later, or medical bills differently from credit cards? Okay, I hate buy now, pay later. I, I hate it. Remember when we were growing up, we had layaway. Do you remember layaway? I don't know what the interest payments are on buy now, pay later. I, I really don't know. I imagine Klarna, I think they just IPOD'd or they're going to IPO. I imagine it's high. Do you have any idea what the interest is like on buy now, pay later? I'm guessing it's super high. I think it's in like 22%. And I only say that because I think, you know, I'm one of these people that when you look at a commercial show up on tv, I try to read the bottom fine print. You know, just because I'm nosy. No, it's smart. Yeah.'Cause I'm the type of person that if I can't pay cash, I can't afford it. That's always been my mentality. Same, yeah. So the average, I know the average credit card interest is about 22% and, you know, that's compounded daily, which people don't realize. And they also don't realize that cash advances are, I don't know what the average cash advance interest rate is, but it will financially ruin you. Buy now, pay later, credit card debt. Pay later, if you can't afford it, don't buy it, period. That's what I would say. Don't pay later. Because that's really what a credit card is. So, you don't need another credit card, especially someone that is trying to cover her bases is having a tough time in this economy. You don't want another credit card, so completely steer clear of that. When it comes to medical bills, you can, and even credit card bills, you can always negotiate with your creditor. And depending on your situation, you might want to hire an advocate, you know somebody that can help you. I would suggest a family member before you actually go writing a check or someone that you know, because you really need to intimidate these people. They're just ordinary people that are doing these negotiations and you have to be aggressive and know what you want going into the negotiation. Mm-hmm. So you said you brought something up and you said a lot of people don't know this, compound daily. Let's talk about that.'Cause you said there's a lot of people that don't under, I guess maybe they don't wrap their head around what that means. Can you explain what that means? Yeah. So when you talk about compounding, it's just the outcome. So like when you compound annually versus compounding daily at the end of those time periods, you're gonna end up with different. And depending on how it's compounded, you'll just end up with a different number in the end. You pay more or less interest in the end. So let's say on Monday, you know your balance is a hundred dollars and your interest rate is 20%. So if that's compounded annually, that's gonna be a much less number than if it's compounded daily and depending on what happens with your balance. But it magnifies the amount of interest you pay. Because even if you don't put an additional dollar on that credit card, that hundred dollars from Monday going into Tuesday, I mean, 20% was really high, but it's gonna be a higher number even if you don't make an additional charge. That's a very good way of explaining it.'Cause I think a lot of us, maybe we think about when we think about I have X balance on my Visa. We might think that, oh, it's, it's 22%, yeah, that's high. But maybe, we think compound yearly versus compound daily. And so we think, oh, I'll just pay it off. I'll pay it off next month,'cause I you know, I got a little extra money coming in next month. Right. No, it's compounded daily. So even if you don't add another cent to your balance, you chop up your credit card and put it away. If you don't pay down the principle, that number will continue to go up because it is compounded daily. Let me just clarify though. The number always goes up, if you don't pay it down, but the number is going to be higher when it's compounded daily versus annually. Yeah. And so let's say you're working with someone, they're a member in your group. They've inputted all of their information and like you said, you meet monthly. How do you deal with someone that is dealing with shame? How do you get them to turn that shame around? You know, the debt shame. The dept shame, like I was mentioning earlier, once she has a plan and once she sees that there are other people, this is very common. I'm not the only one going through this. It really takes a lot of the pressure off, and that's why I love the monthly meetings. That's exactly why we have it. It's aside from the, you know, the accountability isn't to shame you. The accountability is to say, hey, you're human, we're here to support you. The accountability is to stay on track. But you can see that, that it's common what you're going through, and that makes you feel so much better. So you're in a community of your peers. You're in a community of your peers and we're all living in the same economy, right? Mm-hmm. For the listeners who feel behind on investing, what is the first good enough step that they can take right now to help them feel like they're making a difference? Well, you know what I'm going to say, the first step is to listen to my podcast. So the podcast is the word million. So Million, and then Elle E-L-L-E. We cover the basics of investing. Unless it's an interview, my interviews are 20 to 30 minutes long. But the podcast episodes where we're teaching you are five to seven minutes long. And the concepts are broken down in simple terms. In terms that are not intimidating, that you will definitely understand. So number one, listen to the MillionElle podcast. And then I would say, you know, sometimes when you're on, and I'm bringing up social media, because we're on social media. I mean, I'm not, but people are on social media a lot. When you see your favorite finfluencer or there's a tip that really sits with you and makes sense, take action. Like do something about it. Like apply it to your life. Like today we're talking about expenses, right? So what I would tell her today is take some time to, if you are in a bad situation or what you perceive as a bad financial situation, take some time to look at where your money's going. What are your expenses? How can you improve that? And how can you improve your income? There's always an answer. But, but like I always tell my boys where energy goes, focus flows, or is it reverse? But be aware of it and look at that and, and that really takes a lot of the pressure out. So listen to the podcast, look at your expenses.

And the third would be:

What is your goal? You know, pick one goal? Is it to buy a house? Is it to pay down your credit card debt? And, you know, I always tell people with credit card debt, cut up your credit card, throw it away. You know, it definitely has its benefits with points. But until you get into the habit of spending less than you make, you cannot have a credit card. So, anyway, you pick a goal. Is the goal paying down debt? Is the goal buying a house? Is the goal to start investing? And based on that goal, you know, you, you come up with a plan and you get it done. Great advice. Based on the conversation we have had here today. What is the one thing, the one thing that you would want that listener reviewer who's listening right now to hold close in their heart and know that hope does exist? Well, I would say that nobody's perfect. Debt shame is a real thing and it's also very normal. Especially as women, we are juggling so much. Shame is something that you should never feel, especially relative to money. You know, are you a good parent? Are you a good person? These are really the most important things in life. And if you want, you will take care of the debt. And it's, yes, of course it's important, but bigger picture is being a good spouse, being a good citizen, you know, being the best mom you can be. Being kind to yourself, and just loving yourself. Great advice, Gokce, where can people learn more about you or even begin to work with you? They can go to our website, which is MillionElle, so the word Million, and then Elle ELLE.com. My Instagram handle is the same. It's MillionElle, but it's underscore. And we have a podcast. We have a great podcast, for those of you who want to learn about money and that's wherever you listen to podcasts. And the name is MillionElle. Great, I will include all of your information in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. Thank you so much for taking the time to have me on. I really appreciate it. Alright, thank you. Gokce, thank you for making money talk, feel human doable and shame-free.

Here's a quick recap:

Name what's really going on. Pull your accounts into one place so you can see balances, APRs due dates. Choose one simple plan and automate it. And lean on monthly accountability so it sticks. Steer clear of buy now, pay later. Understand that credit card interest compounds daily and don't be afraid to negotiate medical bills or credit card bills. If you'd like additional information, please visit createthebestme.com/ep141. All of Gokce's links are in the show notes below. Until then, keep dreaming big. Take care of yourself. And remember, you are beautiful, strong, and capable of creating the best version of yourself, one goal at a time. Thank you for watching. Catch you next week. Bye for now.